Of course I knew we would enjoy doing this together. I’m also certain that we deepened our common language and friendship. Thanks for coming over onto my turf a little bit—next time/topic maybe I’ll have the courage to venture on to yours ☺️🙏
Thanks, brother. It's nice to say some of this out loud. I might never celebrate a sobriety anniversary, and I agree with Dana's comment about *not* being defined forever by this thing that is no longer part of my life. In some ways, the ultimate evidence of recovery might be for both of us to have reached a point where we're just talking about how to live a good life. And all the old labels don't have to apply.
“In some ways, the ultimate evidence of recovery might be for both of us to have reached a point where we're just talking about how to live a good life. And all the old labels don't have to apply.”
Such a great conversation, Josh and Dee. Not specific to the topic at hand, but I love reading an exchange characterized by true listening, thoughtful responses, care, and kindness between people who are coming from different perspectives and hold very different beliefs. We need lots more of this!
As for the spectrum of addiction, you might check out the Gray Area Drinking work of Jolene Park (she has a substack called Healthy Discoveries). I found Jolene’s podcast (EDIT) when I was sober curious and it resonated deeply with me. By the time I quit alcohol, in my mid-40s, I didn’t have "a problem" relative to the dominant cultural narrative in Canada and the States (I was drinking two robust glasses of wine a night with dinner). But I knew my relationship with alcohol was profoundly problematic (it was the brightest light in my day and the main thing I looked forward to all day, the only way I could relax, etc.). I also knew it was hurting my mental health, physical health, and spiritual life as well as making my insomnia, anxiety, depression, general mood, energy levels, and relationships worse...yet I continued doing it anyway. To me, that’s a problem!
I didn’t go the AA route and don’t identify with the disease model or the label "alcoholic" (though I respect that many find both live saving). On the rare occasions when I go to meetings, I’m fine with introducing myself as an addict or alcoholic if I decide to share. It’s not a label I choose to take on, but I’m fine with calling myself that in that context (knowing that it’s ultimately a human construction - like all labels).
I’ve felt very comfortable calling myself sober since quitting four-plus years ago. And yet, I’ve recently been feeling resistance around continuing to define myself in terms of a substance I no longer consume and never plan to consume again. I’ve written some about that (and my changing relationship to labels and identity) here: https://danaleighlyons.substack.com/p/labels-self-identity-sober-queer
Lastly, I’ll add that I consider sobriety an expansive, ongoing practice - for me, it’s about way more than quitting alcohol (although that was a prerequisite). It has a lot to do with continuing to notice my patterns and where I’m still hooked or numbing out in a way that’s unskillful and doesn’t align with my intention to live more beautifully. This is an ongoing, daily practice that I view within the wider context of Buddhist practice and being human. I don’t mind the un-ended nature of it all. Makes life more alive, awake, connected, and interesting.
Thanks again, Josh and Dee. I love how you took this conversation into much deeper places than what we chose to call ourselves.
Thank you, Dana. Love this especially: "I consider sobriety an expansive, ongoing practice - for me, it’s about way more than quitting alcohol (although that was a prerequisite). It has a lot to do with continuing to notice my patterns and where I’m still hooked or numbing out in a way that’s unskillful and doesn’t align with my intention to live more beautifully." This is the kind of thing that drew me to Dee's writing. I recognized that I'd transferred some of my problematic thinking onto fitness, which is one of those gray areas. What is the difference between escaping into a workout and leaning into intensity as a way to feel alive? What is the difference between a healthy and restorative ritual and a crutch?
For instance, I've needed to go for a long run or straight to the gym after dropping off my kids at their mom's for the week. I tell myself that this is a healthy behavior because it replaces the old instinct to reach for a glass. But I think if I couldn't deal with that sadness of saying goodbye to my kids in any other way, then maybe that would be a problem. I'm also aware that some of the structures of stability that I've built for myself throughout my divorce create a fortress that doesn't leave much space for anyone else. So if I don't want to be alone forever, I'll have to start relaxing some of my rituals, eh? At the same time, Dee is right that we all have varying levels of dependency, and some that is just how we cope with being human, with mortality, with aging, and everything else.
The "un-ended nature of it all" reminds me of a conversation I once had with a massage therapist. She claimed to have known a woman who had "pure" muscle -- no knots anywhere. I couldn't believe it. And in some ways I thought that achieving such a purity might be a burden, because then you'd spend your energy trying to maintain it. So really what we are after is more like our body's natural process of homeostasis. Perfect equilibrium only comes in death. Everything else is a constant adjustment for little imbalances, like one of those tops you spin that rocks back and forth but stays upright until the wobbles get a little too severe.
A dynamic equilibrium. That is as good as it gets!
Dynamic equilibrium - yes! We speak of that state in Chinese Medicine as being an ongoing dance in our bodies and the Universe. When it stops - when change stops - we’re dead.
I hear you on trying to figure out whether something is helpful or unhelpful. I ask myself the following question as a reference point: Is it connecting or disconnecting? Meaning, is it connecting to my true/inner/most aware self? Is it connecting to my physical body and intuition? Is it connecting to others in the sense of true intimacy (not bonding over a shared drug of choice - be that booze or gossip or anything else)? It is connecting to Nature, the Universe, and something greater than myself? Or is it disconnecting from all of the above? I find that holds my answer.
AND, I still choose to engage in certain patterns that are not connecting. Sometimes, I consciously choose to numb out or self-medicate at the symptomatic level - but I find I want to do so less and less the more attention I bring to what I’m doing and the tradeoffs. With alcohol, the tradeoffs were way too high.
Yes to her concept of “gray area drinking.” She has a great TED Talk on this. I think her visibility and term have resonated FAR more with the general public than the formal/semi-formal and confusing nomenclature of “risky drinking,” “harmful drinking,” “hazardous drinking,” “episodic drinking,” "alcohol abuse," "alcohol misuse," etc. that come from the clinical realm/DSM 5, NIH, WHO, CDC, etc. (And I say this as a former clinician and addiction health services researcher!)
This essay resonated deeply with me as I triply identify as in recovery from alcohol use disorder (8 years), work addiction (5 years), and academia (9 years). 😀 The addictions and recoveries are deeply intertwined for me.
In my experience there are nuances around who uses “nondrinker” vs “sober” vs “in recovery,” with the latter two, especially “in recovery,” typically involving a lot of introspection and healing. But it varies…
In your earnest question about whether it’s ok to “claim” sobriety, I sensed a real desire to identify this “thing” or process for yourself. It was a bit different than Dee’s question, “Why is it important to find a place for yourself on the spectrum?” I heard a sense of looking for connection/community, i.e., “Is it ok to land HERE; do *I* think it’s ok and will the *people* there think it’s ok?” Or “These insights are important to me, now where do I belong?” Is that the case for you?
Lauren, thanks so much saying back what you heard! I'm usually the one doing that as an interviewer -- it's such a great invitation to conversation. First, congrats on your sobriety on all fronts. I'd love to hear more of your academic chapter.
Yes, you are completely right -- part of what drew me to Dee and to the question driving this exchange was a desire to belong to a community that I admired. Some of that comes from having exiled myself from an academic community and also from moving out of the family home, starting over as a single person and father. Where are my people? I've found some of that at a Quaker meeting (lots of overlap with mindfulness there). But I've also realized that some of my behaviors and coping mechanisms -- writing polemics, deconstructing hustle culture on Substack or in higher ed -- still weren't serving me well. So that's where some of those sobriety principles of avoiding wasted effort and choosing more deliberately where to place your focus have been really valuable to me.
Still an ongoing process. I'll turn it back to you: do you think I belong among "the sober"? Or is the common ground in mindfulness enough without the other labels?
First, yes to the who and where are my people...I have found that first when I left academia and went into the academia-adjacent "third space professional" realm, and then when I decided that the 12-step world wasn't really a good fit for me after all (although it's where I initially got sober and was held by some very loving women). Re: alcohol, I think part of the problem is that we don't have many communities for folks who identify as "gray area drinkers," identify outside the medical/disease model of addiction, don't identify with 12-step, etc., but who still want community, healing, and growth around their former relationship with alcohol and its role in their lives.
Re: your question, overall, I'm struck by (and touched by) what seems like a *desire* to identify as sober. Some of my scholarly work has been on stigma, and in my experience, many people try to stay away from "sober" and go with "alcohol-free," "dry," or "non-drinker" because of what "sober" seemingly implies. I personally embrace the term, and am "sober out loud," which I know, is a privileged position. So, all that said, I would first say that the "sober community" is perhaps more heterogenous than you might think in its ideologies, tenets, membership, etc. Secondly, that said, I would personally welcome you among "the sober" because to me, it denotes an intentional, reflective choice and an ongoing interest in "doing the (internal) work" and personal growth.
Ah, how interesting. I guess I don't care much about the perceived stigma. Part of it might be to have a clearer narrative when I need to explain that I don't drink. Part of it is also preferring a positive or assertive word rather than the absence of something. Just as I prefer humanist to atheist. What am I *for* instead of what am I *against." At the same time, I can see how being too assertive about sobriety can come off as self-righteous or judgy.
Great conversation with Dee. It’s wonderful to hear both your voices after exchanging so many written words.
I observe that the healthiest people I know are “recovering” from something in the second half of their lives. Deeply looking at beliefs, responsibility, legacy and all the ways we choose what matters to us.
Thanks, Tey. Would you agree, then, that it's useful to think about recovery in that broad sense, or does it water down the meaning of the word for those who have needed actual rehab and AA to get their lives back?
I’m not sure it’s necessary to only use the word recovery for all deep healing work. “Recovery” has been claimed by the substance abuse community, and I think it’s very valid for them. The name of your stack is very eye catching, and holds a gentle humor about yourself, so it works. But I’m not sure that applying that word to every process of deep healing is accurate. The choice to not drink because you feel better when you don’t doesn’t quite fit in with the recovery model. So I probably would not apply it with broad strokes to everyone. It feels more like it is a reassessing coping habits, rethinking assumptions, being curious about what matters, and consciously choosing every day how you live your life is more about becoming present than it is about recovery.
Ah, interesting. Yet I also recognize that there is some deep wisdom in Dee's practice of sobriety that applies to my own life, and that some of that power comes from recognizing that we're not that different. If the substance abuse community has "claimed" recovery, then we're talking about a kind of identity binary. That's not helpful, either, is it? I'm still murky on what the meeting ground is between the recovery community (if that really is limited to substance abuse and addiction) and the deep healing community. Maybe Dee's right that the words don't matter as much as the connection people find. But part of the connection between us came from me seeing my own experience in his, whereas I might have once thought of us as walking very different roads.
The phrase “identity binary” kinda feels like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. Overkill.
My larger question is do you need a label for your choice to live a “less or no alcohol” life style? And who do you need that descriptor for, how does having a name for your process help you.?
Haha -- I've been known to reach for the sledgehammer from time to time. Perhaps you're right.
I think words are useful as part of sense-making, and it felt to me like I'd made a fairly momentous life decision a year ago. I'd been thinking about it for a while, and my circumstances just took away any ambiguity. So a word like "sobriety" would help capture the significance, potentially. But as my exchange with Lauren elsewhere in the thread shows, it's probably more about belonging -- searching for people with shared values, who are walking a similar path. I think you are one of those people. Others just happen to be part of the sobriety community. And those who are living out their sobriety as a worldview or spiritual practice have been able to change my thinking about some of my other potentially self-destructive impulses (such as mounting critiques of systems that I don't have a platform to change).
It really began as a question, not a predetermined conclusion, and I appreciate the conversation that has followed.
I’ve never had substance abuse issues, but I feel like I’m getting sober from the effects of being around addiction. The upgrade is obvious there, too.
I think the mindset shift is the most important part. There's been less pushback than I expected from using sobriety to describe it, but it's possible that literal sobriety is just one path of many toward whatever this more expansive and restorative lifeway is.
Yes. I’ve used sport injuries analogously in the past. The injury triggers a mindset and lifestyle change that results in a better recovery from the injury but also better preventative health measures going forward. Think of a “bottom” whether substance or job loss or divorce as that moment of injury.
I think of myself as an addict in recovery and leave it at that, I don't get into the weeds of it, and I've been putting out fires so that I can get to the heart of what has injured me, what I am recovering from. This conversation rang true to me on so many points.
Loved this! It's a conversation I could have had with my own friends. A lot of insights in succint phrases packed with heaps of meaning. One of my favorites:
"You’ve helped me think more critically about which debates are really worth my time"
This is not just about politics. This helps at work, with your partner, friends, family, and even with yourself.
Josh, this contention with finding your place in a continuum reminds me of an analogous experience of mine. All my life, I have been overwhelmed from time to time, and often unexpectedly. This was in the midst of a life full of public performance, teaching and other experiences involving classically extroverted behavior.
In puzzling out the source of my occasional meltdowns, I came upon a description of what was then called Asperger's Syndrome, later called high functioning autism, and really I have lost track of what they call it today. I did not check all the boxes, but perhaps the lion's share: behind-schedule physical development (bike riding, shoelace tying,) precocious childhood vocabulary, obsession with honesty, plus fabric/skin sensitivity, and the propensity to be overwhelmed by any stimuli - sound, light, ad infinitum - resulting in momentary emotional eruption and paralysis.
But I did not check a number of boxes associated with the category. I have no trouble looking people in the eye; one on one conversation is not only easy but greatly desired, and so on.
The saying was: "If you have met one Asperger's person you have met one Asperger's person." So I questioned the utility of the category even as my inquiry gathered useful information.
To wonder if you are entitled to join other strugglers described as Sober seems similar, especially when sobriety also can be regarded as a spectrum.
In my case, I know there are many people grievously afflicted with disabling characteristics who are on the Autism Spectrum. I experience a fellow-feeling with these folks when I encounter them either in real life or when they are portrayed in media (as they are increasingly). But like you, I feel my struggle is not on the same scale as theirs, though it has been vitally important to me.
The title of your SubStack could be interpreted as a jest or a metaphor. I doubt it has ever felt that way to you. Yet you identify the difference in degree between your very real struggles and those who have found the amazing strength to defy their addictions to murderous substances.
You can hold on to the distinction without dismissing the difficulty of your personal struggle. You are a recovering academic seeking to help others in similarly harrowing circumstances. You broke a strong habit, not quite an addiction, to regular alcohol consumption. These are facts to hold on to, to celebrate.
To cite a rather over-quoted line from a movie, you don't need no stinkin' badges, but if you feel like picking one up, as long as you are clear about what you are doing, and it feels right to you, why not?
Thanks, David. I really appreciate your personal examples. Did you catch my interview earlier this year with James Richardson? He still identifies strongly with his Aspberger's diagnosis, even though as you say that term isn't used currently.
No badges intended -- it was more about sense-making and (possibly) belonging. I find myself drawn to folks who are actively practicing sobriety in ways that go beyond simply not drinking.
I found this a really absorbing conversation. And I was really struck by these words from Dee: "the important part is that you examined the impact a habit of drinking had on your life and decided to change it." Thank you both.
Of course I knew we would enjoy doing this together. I’m also certain that we deepened our common language and friendship. Thanks for coming over onto my turf a little bit—next time/topic maybe I’ll have the courage to venture on to yours ☺️🙏
Thanks, brother. It's nice to say some of this out loud. I might never celebrate a sobriety anniversary, and I agree with Dana's comment about *not* being defined forever by this thing that is no longer part of my life. In some ways, the ultimate evidence of recovery might be for both of us to have reached a point where we're just talking about how to live a good life. And all the old labels don't have to apply.
“In some ways, the ultimate evidence of recovery might be for both of us to have reached a point where we're just talking about how to live a good life. And all the old labels don't have to apply.”
That’s exactly it. Thank you. 🙏
Such a great conversation, Josh and Dee. Not specific to the topic at hand, but I love reading an exchange characterized by true listening, thoughtful responses, care, and kindness between people who are coming from different perspectives and hold very different beliefs. We need lots more of this!
As for the spectrum of addiction, you might check out the Gray Area Drinking work of Jolene Park (she has a substack called Healthy Discoveries). I found Jolene’s podcast (EDIT) when I was sober curious and it resonated deeply with me. By the time I quit alcohol, in my mid-40s, I didn’t have "a problem" relative to the dominant cultural narrative in Canada and the States (I was drinking two robust glasses of wine a night with dinner). But I knew my relationship with alcohol was profoundly problematic (it was the brightest light in my day and the main thing I looked forward to all day, the only way I could relax, etc.). I also knew it was hurting my mental health, physical health, and spiritual life as well as making my insomnia, anxiety, depression, general mood, energy levels, and relationships worse...yet I continued doing it anyway. To me, that’s a problem!
I didn’t go the AA route and don’t identify with the disease model or the label "alcoholic" (though I respect that many find both live saving). On the rare occasions when I go to meetings, I’m fine with introducing myself as an addict or alcoholic if I decide to share. It’s not a label I choose to take on, but I’m fine with calling myself that in that context (knowing that it’s ultimately a human construction - like all labels).
I’ve felt very comfortable calling myself sober since quitting four-plus years ago. And yet, I’ve recently been feeling resistance around continuing to define myself in terms of a substance I no longer consume and never plan to consume again. I’ve written some about that (and my changing relationship to labels and identity) here: https://danaleighlyons.substack.com/p/labels-self-identity-sober-queer
Lastly, I’ll add that I consider sobriety an expansive, ongoing practice - for me, it’s about way more than quitting alcohol (although that was a prerequisite). It has a lot to do with continuing to notice my patterns and where I’m still hooked or numbing out in a way that’s unskillful and doesn’t align with my intention to live more beautifully. This is an ongoing, daily practice that I view within the wider context of Buddhist practice and being human. I don’t mind the un-ended nature of it all. Makes life more alive, awake, connected, and interesting.
Thanks again, Josh and Dee. I love how you took this conversation into much deeper places than what we chose to call ourselves.
Thank you, Dana. Love this especially: "I consider sobriety an expansive, ongoing practice - for me, it’s about way more than quitting alcohol (although that was a prerequisite). It has a lot to do with continuing to notice my patterns and where I’m still hooked or numbing out in a way that’s unskillful and doesn’t align with my intention to live more beautifully." This is the kind of thing that drew me to Dee's writing. I recognized that I'd transferred some of my problematic thinking onto fitness, which is one of those gray areas. What is the difference between escaping into a workout and leaning into intensity as a way to feel alive? What is the difference between a healthy and restorative ritual and a crutch?
For instance, I've needed to go for a long run or straight to the gym after dropping off my kids at their mom's for the week. I tell myself that this is a healthy behavior because it replaces the old instinct to reach for a glass. But I think if I couldn't deal with that sadness of saying goodbye to my kids in any other way, then maybe that would be a problem. I'm also aware that some of the structures of stability that I've built for myself throughout my divorce create a fortress that doesn't leave much space for anyone else. So if I don't want to be alone forever, I'll have to start relaxing some of my rituals, eh? At the same time, Dee is right that we all have varying levels of dependency, and some that is just how we cope with being human, with mortality, with aging, and everything else.
The "un-ended nature of it all" reminds me of a conversation I once had with a massage therapist. She claimed to have known a woman who had "pure" muscle -- no knots anywhere. I couldn't believe it. And in some ways I thought that achieving such a purity might be a burden, because then you'd spend your energy trying to maintain it. So really what we are after is more like our body's natural process of homeostasis. Perfect equilibrium only comes in death. Everything else is a constant adjustment for little imbalances, like one of those tops you spin that rocks back and forth but stays upright until the wobbles get a little too severe.
A dynamic equilibrium. That is as good as it gets!
Dynamic equilibrium - yes! We speak of that state in Chinese Medicine as being an ongoing dance in our bodies and the Universe. When it stops - when change stops - we’re dead.
I hear you on trying to figure out whether something is helpful or unhelpful. I ask myself the following question as a reference point: Is it connecting or disconnecting? Meaning, is it connecting to my true/inner/most aware self? Is it connecting to my physical body and intuition? Is it connecting to others in the sense of true intimacy (not bonding over a shared drug of choice - be that booze or gossip or anything else)? It is connecting to Nature, the Universe, and something greater than myself? Or is it disconnecting from all of the above? I find that holds my answer.
AND, I still choose to engage in certain patterns that are not connecting. Sometimes, I consciously choose to numb out or self-medicate at the symptomatic level - but I find I want to do so less and less the more attention I bring to what I’m doing and the tradeoffs. With alcohol, the tradeoffs were way too high.
Yes to her concept of “gray area drinking.” She has a great TED Talk on this. I think her visibility and term have resonated FAR more with the general public than the formal/semi-formal and confusing nomenclature of “risky drinking,” “harmful drinking,” “hazardous drinking,” “episodic drinking,” "alcohol abuse," "alcohol misuse," etc. that come from the clinical realm/DSM 5, NIH, WHO, CDC, etc. (And I say this as a former clinician and addiction health services researcher!)
*choose to call ourselves. Typos!
This essay resonated deeply with me as I triply identify as in recovery from alcohol use disorder (8 years), work addiction (5 years), and academia (9 years). 😀 The addictions and recoveries are deeply intertwined for me.
In my experience there are nuances around who uses “nondrinker” vs “sober” vs “in recovery,” with the latter two, especially “in recovery,” typically involving a lot of introspection and healing. But it varies…
In your earnest question about whether it’s ok to “claim” sobriety, I sensed a real desire to identify this “thing” or process for yourself. It was a bit different than Dee’s question, “Why is it important to find a place for yourself on the spectrum?” I heard a sense of looking for connection/community, i.e., “Is it ok to land HERE; do *I* think it’s ok and will the *people* there think it’s ok?” Or “These insights are important to me, now where do I belong?” Is that the case for you?
Lauren, thanks so much saying back what you heard! I'm usually the one doing that as an interviewer -- it's such a great invitation to conversation. First, congrats on your sobriety on all fronts. I'd love to hear more of your academic chapter.
Yes, you are completely right -- part of what drew me to Dee and to the question driving this exchange was a desire to belong to a community that I admired. Some of that comes from having exiled myself from an academic community and also from moving out of the family home, starting over as a single person and father. Where are my people? I've found some of that at a Quaker meeting (lots of overlap with mindfulness there). But I've also realized that some of my behaviors and coping mechanisms -- writing polemics, deconstructing hustle culture on Substack or in higher ed -- still weren't serving me well. So that's where some of those sobriety principles of avoiding wasted effort and choosing more deliberately where to place your focus have been really valuable to me.
Still an ongoing process. I'll turn it back to you: do you think I belong among "the sober"? Or is the common ground in mindfulness enough without the other labels?
First, yes to the who and where are my people...I have found that first when I left academia and went into the academia-adjacent "third space professional" realm, and then when I decided that the 12-step world wasn't really a good fit for me after all (although it's where I initially got sober and was held by some very loving women). Re: alcohol, I think part of the problem is that we don't have many communities for folks who identify as "gray area drinkers," identify outside the medical/disease model of addiction, don't identify with 12-step, etc., but who still want community, healing, and growth around their former relationship with alcohol and its role in their lives.
Re: your question, overall, I'm struck by (and touched by) what seems like a *desire* to identify as sober. Some of my scholarly work has been on stigma, and in my experience, many people try to stay away from "sober" and go with "alcohol-free," "dry," or "non-drinker" because of what "sober" seemingly implies. I personally embrace the term, and am "sober out loud," which I know, is a privileged position. So, all that said, I would first say that the "sober community" is perhaps more heterogenous than you might think in its ideologies, tenets, membership, etc. Secondly, that said, I would personally welcome you among "the sober" because to me, it denotes an intentional, reflective choice and an ongoing interest in "doing the (internal) work" and personal growth.
Ah, how interesting. I guess I don't care much about the perceived stigma. Part of it might be to have a clearer narrative when I need to explain that I don't drink. Part of it is also preferring a positive or assertive word rather than the absence of something. Just as I prefer humanist to atheist. What am I *for* instead of what am I *against." At the same time, I can see how being too assertive about sobriety can come off as self-righteous or judgy.
Great conversation with Dee. It’s wonderful to hear both your voices after exchanging so many written words.
I observe that the healthiest people I know are “recovering” from something in the second half of their lives. Deeply looking at beliefs, responsibility, legacy and all the ways we choose what matters to us.
Thanks, Tey. Would you agree, then, that it's useful to think about recovery in that broad sense, or does it water down the meaning of the word for those who have needed actual rehab and AA to get their lives back?
I’m not sure it’s necessary to only use the word recovery for all deep healing work. “Recovery” has been claimed by the substance abuse community, and I think it’s very valid for them. The name of your stack is very eye catching, and holds a gentle humor about yourself, so it works. But I’m not sure that applying that word to every process of deep healing is accurate. The choice to not drink because you feel better when you don’t doesn’t quite fit in with the recovery model. So I probably would not apply it with broad strokes to everyone. It feels more like it is a reassessing coping habits, rethinking assumptions, being curious about what matters, and consciously choosing every day how you live your life is more about becoming present than it is about recovery.
Ah, interesting. Yet I also recognize that there is some deep wisdom in Dee's practice of sobriety that applies to my own life, and that some of that power comes from recognizing that we're not that different. If the substance abuse community has "claimed" recovery, then we're talking about a kind of identity binary. That's not helpful, either, is it? I'm still murky on what the meeting ground is between the recovery community (if that really is limited to substance abuse and addiction) and the deep healing community. Maybe Dee's right that the words don't matter as much as the connection people find. But part of the connection between us came from me seeing my own experience in his, whereas I might have once thought of us as walking very different roads.
The phrase “identity binary” kinda feels like using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. Overkill.
My larger question is do you need a label for your choice to live a “less or no alcohol” life style? And who do you need that descriptor for, how does having a name for your process help you.?
Haha -- I've been known to reach for the sledgehammer from time to time. Perhaps you're right.
I think words are useful as part of sense-making, and it felt to me like I'd made a fairly momentous life decision a year ago. I'd been thinking about it for a while, and my circumstances just took away any ambiguity. So a word like "sobriety" would help capture the significance, potentially. But as my exchange with Lauren elsewhere in the thread shows, it's probably more about belonging -- searching for people with shared values, who are walking a similar path. I think you are one of those people. Others just happen to be part of the sobriety community. And those who are living out their sobriety as a worldview or spiritual practice have been able to change my thinking about some of my other potentially self-destructive impulses (such as mounting critiques of systems that I don't have a platform to change).
It really began as a question, not a predetermined conclusion, and I appreciate the conversation that has followed.
Yes! "Conscious substance use" is the phrase I use to describe this way of thinking, it’s a little different from sobriety and recovery.
I’ve never had substance abuse issues, but I feel like I’m getting sober from the effects of being around addiction. The upgrade is obvious there, too.
Indeed. Thanks for sharing. Call it sober-adjacent? ☺️
Getting sober from anxiety and overwhelm and stress, I guess. :)
I think the mindset shift is the most important part. There's been less pushback than I expected from using sobriety to describe it, but it's possible that literal sobriety is just one path of many toward whatever this more expansive and restorative lifeway is.
Yes. I’ve used sport injuries analogously in the past. The injury triggers a mindset and lifestyle change that results in a better recovery from the injury but also better preventative health measures going forward. Think of a “bottom” whether substance or job loss or divorce as that moment of injury.
Any
We all cope somehow, right? You just haven’t chosen substances apparently. 🙏
I think of myself as an addict in recovery and leave it at that, I don't get into the weeds of it, and I've been putting out fires so that I can get to the heart of what has injured me, what I am recovering from. This conversation rang true to me on so many points.
Your writing about this first nudged me toward sobriety. Thank you.
Oh, Josh. That’s a really beautiful thing to hear.
Loved this! It's a conversation I could have had with my own friends. A lot of insights in succint phrases packed with heaps of meaning. One of my favorites:
"You’ve helped me think more critically about which debates are really worth my time"
This is not just about politics. This helps at work, with your partner, friends, family, and even with yourself.
Thanks, Ramiro! Yes, I think by the end we've moved well beyond sobriety into a bigger conversation about mindfulness.
Josh, this contention with finding your place in a continuum reminds me of an analogous experience of mine. All my life, I have been overwhelmed from time to time, and often unexpectedly. This was in the midst of a life full of public performance, teaching and other experiences involving classically extroverted behavior.
In puzzling out the source of my occasional meltdowns, I came upon a description of what was then called Asperger's Syndrome, later called high functioning autism, and really I have lost track of what they call it today. I did not check all the boxes, but perhaps the lion's share: behind-schedule physical development (bike riding, shoelace tying,) precocious childhood vocabulary, obsession with honesty, plus fabric/skin sensitivity, and the propensity to be overwhelmed by any stimuli - sound, light, ad infinitum - resulting in momentary emotional eruption and paralysis.
But I did not check a number of boxes associated with the category. I have no trouble looking people in the eye; one on one conversation is not only easy but greatly desired, and so on.
The saying was: "If you have met one Asperger's person you have met one Asperger's person." So I questioned the utility of the category even as my inquiry gathered useful information.
To wonder if you are entitled to join other strugglers described as Sober seems similar, especially when sobriety also can be regarded as a spectrum.
In my case, I know there are many people grievously afflicted with disabling characteristics who are on the Autism Spectrum. I experience a fellow-feeling with these folks when I encounter them either in real life or when they are portrayed in media (as they are increasingly). But like you, I feel my struggle is not on the same scale as theirs, though it has been vitally important to me.
The title of your SubStack could be interpreted as a jest or a metaphor. I doubt it has ever felt that way to you. Yet you identify the difference in degree between your very real struggles and those who have found the amazing strength to defy their addictions to murderous substances.
You can hold on to the distinction without dismissing the difficulty of your personal struggle. You are a recovering academic seeking to help others in similarly harrowing circumstances. You broke a strong habit, not quite an addiction, to regular alcohol consumption. These are facts to hold on to, to celebrate.
To cite a rather over-quoted line from a movie, you don't need no stinkin' badges, but if you feel like picking one up, as long as you are clear about what you are doing, and it feels right to you, why not?
Thanks, David. I really appreciate your personal examples. Did you catch my interview earlier this year with James Richardson? He still identifies strongly with his Aspberger's diagnosis, even though as you say that term isn't used currently.
No badges intended -- it was more about sense-making and (possibly) belonging. I find myself drawn to folks who are actively practicing sobriety in ways that go beyond simply not drinking.
I found this a really absorbing conversation. And I was really struck by these words from Dee: "the important part is that you examined the impact a habit of drinking had on your life and decided to change it." Thank you both.
Thanks Jeffrey! Glad it landed.
Good stuff. Helpful insights for all of us “on the spectrum” 😉
Thanks, Jan! Sounds like you find the spectrum idea useful. Dee isn't so sure :)
Great conversation gents. I got a lot out of this. Thanks for diving into this topic and showing us a bit more about yourselves.
Glad to hear it. Thanks for reading!
I love this. Thanks Josh and Dee!
Very interesting
Wow such a great conversation! I live the phrase "spiritual fitness"
Thanks Daphne! Hope this followed your recommendation of echoing the title in the actual post :)
I think it does! I really enjoyed reading this exchange, it’s like overhearing an interesting conversation.
Thanks so much for the mention, Josh. I look forward to taking in this conversation and will return with some thoughts!
Thanks, Dana! I'll look forward to hearing more of your insights.
Just left more than you might’ve bargained for below!
I don't saturate easily. Thanks for contributing!