I thoroughly enjoyed this, Josh. And do remember you as a student. I will never forget the CD of flamingo music you presented to me one evening a the HOT CLUB. I would love to see you and your family sometime on one of your trips “home”.
Hope for a visit to the art studio with your kids….would be fun to meet them and see you again. If you have time, you can visit my website www.terreljones.com
Josh, this is a lovely, thoughtful, meditation. Throughout I was brought to think of Sam’s piece on tribes, and then you did get to it by the end. I don’t want to be presumptuous – this all is bound to be more complex for you than you can fit into a single essay. Every instance has its unique particularities. But I see some similarity to my experience and that of others whose nature ultimately draws them away from one “place” to another. Very differently, I grew up in urban, working class, New York City. That contains several components, so when I say life drew me away from it, there are distinct movements I refer to. The closest parallel to what you grapple with here it the “working class” element. You also contend, very differently, with the natural beauty of Montana, but that element, as you yourself discuss it, is also not completely separable, in the modern world, from the difficulty for you of any resumed and continued life in Montana.
Working class New York, its neighborhood life, its music and rhythms, saturates my bones. I was steeped in it growing up and surrounded by it one way or another for some decades after. I’m fascinated by it as an expression of so many of the realities of life, and there is much nostalgia for my youthful world, but I recognized fairly early that I manifested certain, for me, more profound affinities (to harken back to Sam) – particularly creative and intellectual – that were drawing me away from it. And they did. My attention and interest will always be drawn. That world is a part of me. (When I’m in NYC talking and behaving very casually with friends and family, that can be very obvious in my speech and manner.) But I’m not of it and haven’t been for a long time. We live in those splits.
Jay, you're quite right that all communities with strong identities have this allure. Montanans tend to take this to hyperbolic extremes :). Do you think working class New York has been captured reasonably well in literature and film? It's so interesting to me that you could have grown up in the cultural center of the world and yet have felt that intellectual pursuits might have pulled you away. Perhaps I don't understand how compartmentalized some aspects of New York life are -- by class, certainly, but I'm completely ignorant of how the neighborhood boundaries function and what those internal rhythms within a neighborhood or community might be, even within sight of Manhattan.
"I'm not of it and haven't been for a long time. We live in those splits." I suppose I have always been "of" Montana. My intellectual pursuits carried me far away from the place, but if there is any place or thing that I'm "of," that is it. But you're making me think now about how most people live in a "split" of some kind. How interesting and fertile for further writing.
I need to be clearer that what I was pulled away from, for the purpose of this discussion, is the working-class culture of New York, not New York itself, which, when I left it, I left for other reasons. Indeed, for many years, in my writer bio, after my name, came the appositive phrase "a New Yorker always." LOL. I am definitely *of* New York, though I very much love California too, to which I first traveled at 17. Yet I returned to live in NYC parttime for several years before the pandemic, so that's another split. But about compartmentalization, neighborhood boundaries and identities in New York are very strong and closely tied to class, ethnicity, and race, -- education, too -- especially in the "outer boroughs," i.e. not Manhattan. Working class people in the outer boroughs can live lives almost as disconnected from the influence centers of the city -- culture, finance, education -- as someone who doesn't live in New York. Of course, they're exposed to them by media and perhaps work in ways a non-New Yorker isn't and that produces a range of responses, including resentment along with the pride. To return to the specific point, in my case as a Jewish New Yorker -- very common though not necessarily to the point of *typical* -- though my parents were low income and not highly educated, and maintained only modest, untutored interests in popular culture, I nonetheless came of age in a broader Jewish community (beyond neighborhood) that highly valued educational achievement and cultural production. it was that influence that resonated from the start and in time drew me away.
Very nice piece as usual, though I would disagree with the opening analogy between a sticker of Tr*mp urinating on 'libtards' and something as relatively gentle and analytic as Obama's comments about some people clinging to God and guns. Such false equivalencies may avoid offending some non-liberal/academic types (and it's a worthy cause to reach out to such folks) but they also solidify the coarse and rather shameful political culture of the far right.
Thanks Douglas. Perhaps there is no avoiding offense these days. Even as a liberal, I heard Obama's remarks as condescending, and people in my own family absorbed them in much the same way that you and I might perceive the "libtard" sticker. And so I think your comment illustrates Franklin's idea quite well -- we really struggle to see opposing views as anything other than course, shameful, and thus "savage." Perhaps you'll indulge a little clarification below...
I'm not religious, but I understand why religious life is such a bastion for some people in rural America. It's more than just the beliefs, it's a community of support when you need snow plowed from your driveway, or when you need homecooked meals after childbirth or during an illness. I will admit that gun culture in Montana repels me, largely because it has lurched so far from the hunting culture that I learned. But there is a defiance there that I also understand. Nobody came to save the people who made it through the 90s and 00s in rural Montana, so they feel they've earned the right to target practice with whatever gun they want on their own land. It's more of a libertarian view that has been manipulated by the NRA into something more sinister. No one hunts with assault rifles. But this is a backlash against fears about what happens far away in Washington -- and Washington really does feel like another universe when you're in Troy, Montana.
Thanks, Jeremy! Curious if you feel the same, or if you're happier where you landed? I know you've managed to keep a foothold in the Northwest, at least.
Josh, Montana will always be part of my identity for sure. But the impact of the small culture of Troy and the high school and the landscape all in combination created something very unique or it at least impacted me very uniquely. It’s hard to explain it to Shannon or my boys. I love what it created in me.
Jeremy, given that we share so many painful memories from that area, I'm glad that it has aged in a good way for you. You're right that it was a mix of the people and the place that shaped us. How to find words for what that created is the work of a lifetime.
This is so beautiful. My heart aches.
I thoroughly enjoyed this, Josh. And do remember you as a student. I will never forget the CD of flamingo music you presented to me one evening a the HOT CLUB. I would love to see you and your family sometime on one of your trips “home”.
Thanks so much! Yes, I recall many fun evenings at Frank's club. I'll be out that way with the kids in early July.
Hope for a visit to the art studio with your kids….would be fun to meet them and see you again. If you have time, you can visit my website www.terreljones.com
Josh, this is a lovely, thoughtful, meditation. Throughout I was brought to think of Sam’s piece on tribes, and then you did get to it by the end. I don’t want to be presumptuous – this all is bound to be more complex for you than you can fit into a single essay. Every instance has its unique particularities. But I see some similarity to my experience and that of others whose nature ultimately draws them away from one “place” to another. Very differently, I grew up in urban, working class, New York City. That contains several components, so when I say life drew me away from it, there are distinct movements I refer to. The closest parallel to what you grapple with here it the “working class” element. You also contend, very differently, with the natural beauty of Montana, but that element, as you yourself discuss it, is also not completely separable, in the modern world, from the difficulty for you of any resumed and continued life in Montana.
Working class New York, its neighborhood life, its music and rhythms, saturates my bones. I was steeped in it growing up and surrounded by it one way or another for some decades after. I’m fascinated by it as an expression of so many of the realities of life, and there is much nostalgia for my youthful world, but I recognized fairly early that I manifested certain, for me, more profound affinities (to harken back to Sam) – particularly creative and intellectual – that were drawing me away from it. And they did. My attention and interest will always be drawn. That world is a part of me. (When I’m in NYC talking and behaving very casually with friends and family, that can be very obvious in my speech and manner.) But I’m not of it and haven’t been for a long time. We live in those splits.
Jay, you're quite right that all communities with strong identities have this allure. Montanans tend to take this to hyperbolic extremes :). Do you think working class New York has been captured reasonably well in literature and film? It's so interesting to me that you could have grown up in the cultural center of the world and yet have felt that intellectual pursuits might have pulled you away. Perhaps I don't understand how compartmentalized some aspects of New York life are -- by class, certainly, but I'm completely ignorant of how the neighborhood boundaries function and what those internal rhythms within a neighborhood or community might be, even within sight of Manhattan.
"I'm not of it and haven't been for a long time. We live in those splits." I suppose I have always been "of" Montana. My intellectual pursuits carried me far away from the place, but if there is any place or thing that I'm "of," that is it. But you're making me think now about how most people live in a "split" of some kind. How interesting and fertile for further writing.
I need to be clearer that what I was pulled away from, for the purpose of this discussion, is the working-class culture of New York, not New York itself, which, when I left it, I left for other reasons. Indeed, for many years, in my writer bio, after my name, came the appositive phrase "a New Yorker always." LOL. I am definitely *of* New York, though I very much love California too, to which I first traveled at 17. Yet I returned to live in NYC parttime for several years before the pandemic, so that's another split. But about compartmentalization, neighborhood boundaries and identities in New York are very strong and closely tied to class, ethnicity, and race, -- education, too -- especially in the "outer boroughs," i.e. not Manhattan. Working class people in the outer boroughs can live lives almost as disconnected from the influence centers of the city -- culture, finance, education -- as someone who doesn't live in New York. Of course, they're exposed to them by media and perhaps work in ways a non-New Yorker isn't and that produces a range of responses, including resentment along with the pride. To return to the specific point, in my case as a Jewish New Yorker -- very common though not necessarily to the point of *typical* -- though my parents were low income and not highly educated, and maintained only modest, untutored interests in popular culture, I nonetheless came of age in a broader Jewish community (beyond neighborhood) that highly valued educational achievement and cultural production. it was that influence that resonated from the start and in time drew me away.
Very nice piece as usual, though I would disagree with the opening analogy between a sticker of Tr*mp urinating on 'libtards' and something as relatively gentle and analytic as Obama's comments about some people clinging to God and guns. Such false equivalencies may avoid offending some non-liberal/academic types (and it's a worthy cause to reach out to such folks) but they also solidify the coarse and rather shameful political culture of the far right.
Thanks Douglas. Perhaps there is no avoiding offense these days. Even as a liberal, I heard Obama's remarks as condescending, and people in my own family absorbed them in much the same way that you and I might perceive the "libtard" sticker. And so I think your comment illustrates Franklin's idea quite well -- we really struggle to see opposing views as anything other than course, shameful, and thus "savage." Perhaps you'll indulge a little clarification below...
I'm not religious, but I understand why religious life is such a bastion for some people in rural America. It's more than just the beliefs, it's a community of support when you need snow plowed from your driveway, or when you need homecooked meals after childbirth or during an illness. I will admit that gun culture in Montana repels me, largely because it has lurched so far from the hunting culture that I learned. But there is a defiance there that I also understand. Nobody came to save the people who made it through the 90s and 00s in rural Montana, so they feel they've earned the right to target practice with whatever gun they want on their own land. It's more of a libertarian view that has been manipulated by the NRA into something more sinister. No one hunts with assault rifles. But this is a backlash against fears about what happens far away in Washington -- and Washington really does feel like another universe when you're in Troy, Montana.
I enjoyed the read. Thanks Josh.
Thanks, Jeremy! Curious if you feel the same, or if you're happier where you landed? I know you've managed to keep a foothold in the Northwest, at least.
Josh, Montana will always be part of my identity for sure. But the impact of the small culture of Troy and the high school and the landscape all in combination created something very unique or it at least impacted me very uniquely. It’s hard to explain it to Shannon or my boys. I love what it created in me.
Jeremy, given that we share so many painful memories from that area, I'm glad that it has aged in a good way for you. You're right that it was a mix of the people and the place that shaped us. How to find words for what that created is the work of a lifetime.