Thanks for your transparency about the industry job searching. (Note: your résumé has some personal info that you’d redacted on your CV!) I’ve struggled to craft cover letters, turn a 30-pg CV into a 1.5-pg resume and a 5-pg brief CV. As I’ve worked on this though, I’ve developed an extended list of ‘what I did’ --> ‘what the doing required’ --> ‘what the doing IS in industry terms. Useful, if nothing else, as a salve for the frequent days when I feel deep worthlessness and devaluation in academia.
I want to say that I think academics sell ourselves very short. Clarity about ‘what else besides academia?’ might usefully be found in an initial examination of personal values, electricity (what lights me up when I discuss it or when others see me discussing it?), and flow states? Exhaustive clarity about these things can make pathways to non-academic work clearer. We don’t just need to look for the same sort of environs we ideally wanted in our academic pursuits.
Example: my values...and my middle-age = I want autonomy, I am not striving or ambitious now, and I value a job that stays ‘at work.’ I don’t necessarily need a job that uses my academic skills as much as I’d like a job where I’m not micro-managed, a job with explicit stop and start times. So my options may be broader now that I’ve figured out what matters at this point in my life. (It’s also helping me to find better sanity whilst still in academia.)
Thanks for the catch on the resume. Yes, the "what I did" narrative is pretty long. And hopefully I'll have a chance to explain in an interview that most of the leadership and management I did was in addition to my full-time teaching and advising duties, not to mention research. The notion that I could do *just* the management part and really focus on doing it well is exciting. I've found that the story I can tell about leadership is much more compelling than the story I can tell about skills for communications specialist positions. But it's early days, and I have no sense yet of how hard it will be to get to the interview stage.
I'm with you on the autonomy portion: some degree of flexibility, with three young kids, is really important. I'd like to find something with growth potential, but my kids are going to be my top priority.
Glad you're finding some comfort in exploring other options -- and knowing your worth -- while still in the academic role.
My unsolicited interview advice...? Speak 90% less than you think you should or than you probably did as a professor person! Having biffed industry interviews - and then spoken with PhD friends who never worked in academia (straight to industry) - I learned that we academics explain too much, say too much, qualify too much. We also tend to skirt the first person in detrimental ways. We need to be able to say "I executed ____, with the clear outcome of _____." [Instead, we apparently waddle around the point and don't own process, product, delivery, outcome the way we should/need to.] I am a meanderer, over-explainer, etc.
I've heard others recommend that executed / outcome formula. Directing a first-year seminar for six years gave me a lot of those nuggets. Something as basic as selecting a common read for the incoming class and organizing book discussions during orientation week requires many nested actions and outcomes. I hear you about getting bogged down in process, etc.
Thanks! There was a separate portion in the online application for language proficiency. But a good reminder to include in future resumes and cover letters.
Just saw this pop up while on the app, nice timing! I tend to appreciate a transcript instead of a podcast, since it makes it easier to take notes. I wish there was more discussion about careers outside academia in the environmental humanities, but I’ll keep a look out for people who’ve made the switch. Have you heard of Chris Cornthwaite and his site ‘roostervane’? He’s the only humanities person that comes to mind at the moment. Looking forward to the interview series!
Thanks! I'll check Chris out. Haven't heard of him. I'm sure there are some folks in the creator economy, but that's a tough path for anyone who doesn't already have a sizable following.
I've never understood why so many people prefer videos--I know you're not going those but it's a parallel point--when reading text is soo much faster and more efficient. But the stats show that general audiences love them. I think it's a generational and demographic thing. So, going back to your poll, it's about who your audience is.
Great discussion going on here, thanks for sharing your journey Joshua and best wishes for your transition.
A few other avenues of possibilities for academics in humanities could be Management Consulting, Non-Profits. I've also seen early stage startups have roles that don't have a very specific definition - which for some could be useful to break into and gain some mission driven experience in industry.
In terms of the podcast/article - I myself am going through a very similar analysis and I've seen Peter Yang here in Substack, use interview articles very astutely as opposed to audio based podcasts. I'm heading that route as well myself most likely.
I did an article based approach for Joe S the history prof- who you mention here. Here is a link if you want to see it in action:
Thank you! I enjoy audio editing, especially the creative bits like splicing in music and narration, but it really is hours and hours of work. If folks are listening mainly for the information, the transcript provides that -- and the Substack app includes the text-to-speech player for those who would prefer to listen. Not as engaging as real people talking, but definitely more efficient.
What you say might be true. I'm wondering, for instance, if I ought to complete some kind of coursework in project management to really compete well for those positions. The problem, as I see it, with applying for lower-level positions is that hiring managers wonder if you're really serious or see you as overqualified. There are some age-related challenges there, too, for people with lots of experience (20 years in my case).
I like your idea in the Inside Higher Ed piece of requiring certification as part of graduate study (acquiring some hard skills with broader relevance). Part of me resists the idea that a discipline like literature must make itself friendly to capitalism. Because capitalism seems to only care about literature in terms of things like book sales and public speaking. This may be an arcane way of thinking -- certainly it does me no favors as a job seeker now.
Yup, totally agree with this: "Departments talking about how a history PhD prepares you for a wide variety of careers are mostly doing so disingenuously: they only study the students who “made it,” if they do so at all." I do believe that liberal arts background carries some cachet in leadership roles, but it does so unpredictably. And those examples, as you say, are anecdotal. Not sure if you saw my discussion thread a few weeks ago, "Penalized for a PhD," but I think the ROI for a PhD is decreasing for these and other reasons.
That calculation assumes I would have made $50k/yr instead of grad school. But I was offered $100k as a software engineer at the time. Part of what burns me so much is just how much less I have been treated despite becoming more capable.
If "industry" includes nonprofits, then there are a lot of us humanities PhDs out there, including me. Currently I'm a freelance editor and nonprofit leader. Check out Katina Rogers on LinkedIn.
Also, would appreciate any tips about getting back into coding for former coders...
I was briefly in industry before going academic, and I do have to admit that Ph.D.s don't really prepare you for industry work. But what too often gets left out is that Bachelor's don't either. Unless you're going in a technical field, your typical person doesn't use much or anything they learned--or their background is incidental compared to what a Ph.D. can do.
I think that what we Ph.D.s need to do is show just how much more capable we are in tasks that most people overlook, e.g., planning, analysis, time management, etc. Your typical vanilla employee does all these things much less well.
Thanks for your transparency about the industry job searching. (Note: your résumé has some personal info that you’d redacted on your CV!) I’ve struggled to craft cover letters, turn a 30-pg CV into a 1.5-pg resume and a 5-pg brief CV. As I’ve worked on this though, I’ve developed an extended list of ‘what I did’ --> ‘what the doing required’ --> ‘what the doing IS in industry terms. Useful, if nothing else, as a salve for the frequent days when I feel deep worthlessness and devaluation in academia.
I want to say that I think academics sell ourselves very short. Clarity about ‘what else besides academia?’ might usefully be found in an initial examination of personal values, electricity (what lights me up when I discuss it or when others see me discussing it?), and flow states? Exhaustive clarity about these things can make pathways to non-academic work clearer. We don’t just need to look for the same sort of environs we ideally wanted in our academic pursuits.
Example: my values...and my middle-age = I want autonomy, I am not striving or ambitious now, and I value a job that stays ‘at work.’ I don’t necessarily need a job that uses my academic skills as much as I’d like a job where I’m not micro-managed, a job with explicit stop and start times. So my options may be broader now that I’ve figured out what matters at this point in my life. (It’s also helping me to find better sanity whilst still in academia.)
Thanks for the catch on the resume. Yes, the "what I did" narrative is pretty long. And hopefully I'll have a chance to explain in an interview that most of the leadership and management I did was in addition to my full-time teaching and advising duties, not to mention research. The notion that I could do *just* the management part and really focus on doing it well is exciting. I've found that the story I can tell about leadership is much more compelling than the story I can tell about skills for communications specialist positions. But it's early days, and I have no sense yet of how hard it will be to get to the interview stage.
I'm with you on the autonomy portion: some degree of flexibility, with three young kids, is really important. I'd like to find something with growth potential, but my kids are going to be my top priority.
Glad you're finding some comfort in exploring other options -- and knowing your worth -- while still in the academic role.
My unsolicited interview advice...? Speak 90% less than you think you should or than you probably did as a professor person! Having biffed industry interviews - and then spoken with PhD friends who never worked in academia (straight to industry) - I learned that we academics explain too much, say too much, qualify too much. We also tend to skirt the first person in detrimental ways. We need to be able to say "I executed ____, with the clear outcome of _____." [Instead, we apparently waddle around the point and don't own process, product, delivery, outcome the way we should/need to.] I am a meanderer, over-explainer, etc.
I've heard others recommend that executed / outcome formula. Directing a first-year seminar for six years gave me a lot of those nuggets. Something as basic as selecting a common read for the incoming class and organizing book discussions during orientation week requires many nested actions and outcomes. I hear you about getting bogged down in process, etc.
A career changing humanities Ph.D. for you.
https://christophercaterine.com/additional-resources/
https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691200194/leaving-academia
Also, I see the EBSCO position in the secondary list mentions Spanish speaking, and I don't think you mention that anywhere.
Thanks! There was a separate portion in the online application for language proficiency. But a good reminder to include in future resumes and cover letters.
Just saw this pop up while on the app, nice timing! I tend to appreciate a transcript instead of a podcast, since it makes it easier to take notes. I wish there was more discussion about careers outside academia in the environmental humanities, but I’ll keep a look out for people who’ve made the switch. Have you heard of Chris Cornthwaite and his site ‘roostervane’? He’s the only humanities person that comes to mind at the moment. Looking forward to the interview series!
Thanks! I'll check Chris out. Haven't heard of him. I'm sure there are some folks in the creator economy, but that's a tough path for anyone who doesn't already have a sizable following.
About the poll.
I've never understood why so many people prefer videos--I know you're not going those but it's a parallel point--when reading text is soo much faster and more efficient. But the stats show that general audiences love them. I think it's a generational and demographic thing. So, going back to your poll, it's about who your audience is.
Great discussion going on here, thanks for sharing your journey Joshua and best wishes for your transition.
A few other avenues of possibilities for academics in humanities could be Management Consulting, Non-Profits. I've also seen early stage startups have roles that don't have a very specific definition - which for some could be useful to break into and gain some mission driven experience in industry.
In terms of the podcast/article - I myself am going through a very similar analysis and I've seen Peter Yang here in Substack, use interview articles very astutely as opposed to audio based podcasts. I'm heading that route as well myself most likely.
I did an article based approach for Joe S the history prof- who you mention here. Here is a link if you want to see it in action:
https://phdtoindustry.substack.com/p/tenured-to-tech-how-a-history-professor
Best wishes and good luck!
Thank you! I enjoy audio editing, especially the creative bits like splicing in music and narration, but it really is hours and hours of work. If folks are listening mainly for the information, the transcript provides that -- and the Substack app includes the text-to-speech player for those who would prefer to listen. Not as engaging as real people talking, but definitely more efficient.
Just thought of another humanities Ph.D. in industry I recently heard about https://www.linkedin.com/in/toddcarmody/?originalSubdomain=de
What you say might be true. I'm wondering, for instance, if I ought to complete some kind of coursework in project management to really compete well for those positions. The problem, as I see it, with applying for lower-level positions is that hiring managers wonder if you're really serious or see you as overqualified. There are some age-related challenges there, too, for people with lots of experience (20 years in my case).
I like your idea in the Inside Higher Ed piece of requiring certification as part of graduate study (acquiring some hard skills with broader relevance). Part of me resists the idea that a discipline like literature must make itself friendly to capitalism. Because capitalism seems to only care about literature in terms of things like book sales and public speaking. This may be an arcane way of thinking -- certainly it does me no favors as a job seeker now.
What are some examples of certification or upskilling that someone like me might consider? One I've considered is the Project Manager training offered by Google via Coursera: https://grow.google/certificates/project-management/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=paidsearch&utm_campaign=ha-sem-sitelink__geo--US&utm_term=google%20pm%20certification&gad=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwpuajBhBpEiwA_ZtfhZqCaj_rvvNhPZkhdvAQ7mlcW_AeNSX1jtfmi7AYryuqQss8bNXNuxoCsLsQAvD_BwE#?modal_active=none
Yup, totally agree with this: "Departments talking about how a history PhD prepares you for a wide variety of careers are mostly doing so disingenuously: they only study the students who “made it,” if they do so at all." I do believe that liberal arts background carries some cachet in leadership roles, but it does so unpredictably. And those examples, as you say, are anecdotal. Not sure if you saw my discussion thread a few weeks ago, "Penalized for a PhD," but I think the ROI for a PhD is decreasing for these and other reasons.
Josh, I once calculated that the RoI for my Ph.D. was -$500k ten years in.
This really needs to be more widely understood.
That calculation assumes I would have made $50k/yr instead of grad school. But I was offered $100k as a software engineer at the time. Part of what burns me so much is just how much less I have been treated despite becoming more capable.
If "industry" includes nonprofits, then there are a lot of us humanities PhDs out there, including me. Currently I'm a freelance editor and nonprofit leader. Check out Katina Rogers on LinkedIn.
I'm going to +1 Zeb here.
Also, would appreciate any tips about getting back into coding for former coders...
I was briefly in industry before going academic, and I do have to admit that Ph.D.s don't really prepare you for industry work. But what too often gets left out is that Bachelor's don't either. Unless you're going in a technical field, your typical person doesn't use much or anything they learned--or their background is incidental compared to what a Ph.D. can do.
I think that what we Ph.D.s need to do is show just how much more capable we are in tasks that most people overlook, e.g., planning, analysis, time management, etc. Your typical vanilla employee does all these things much less well.