It was a pleasure sitting down for this conversation amongst fellow recovering academics. Here's to shaking off more of the academic asbestos as we continue onwards and upwards with more novels
I like the asbestos metaphor -- indeed. Thanks for modeling a thoughtful way to tackle self-publishing. It really seems that the mystique of the agent has worn off. We didn't talk about Willa Cather (people might be sick of my obsession with her), but she was one of Alfred Knopf's first clients. He was a visionary publisher who wanted to acquire unique talent more than he wanted to sell books. The tail is now wagging the dog in that respect, perhaps has been for a long while. The film "American Fiction" tells that tale well.
Incidentally, Cather cared so much about her autonomy that she nixed any future movie deals after Warner Brothers butchered "A Lost Lady." Can you imagine Anthony Doerr objecting to the media adaptation of his book? We can't control our art in every respect once it leaves us, but I appreciate your reminder that we can make some choices -- about our professional partners, quality of paper, and more.
Regarding all this from the Polish perspective, I agree with Samuel that very little gets written not only outside the camps as a setting but in Poland in general. (Or should I say Auschwitz: there is less to be found out there set in Treblinka, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor and Belzec) I'm curious about Samuel's novel: it is true that too few stories are set in Lodz. It is a disservice to the city: whether it is the era of Jewish industrialists, the war, the Communist years when it was "Polish Hollywood" or even today, when it's a very lively city, Lodz has enormous storytelling potential. But because it was the postwar film studio setting of many of Poland's best films, it is the exact opposite situation with cinema.
It has, in general, been very difficult to elicit much, if any, interest in and/or sympathy for the Polish wartime experience. It is perceived exactly as Samuel said: as a conspiracy to steal the attention from Jewish suffering and nothing else. Americans, many (though not all) Jews and the EU are stubbornly convinced of this no matter how much it contradicts basic facts; and what little recognition is now given has come only because Poland has stood its ground against international pressure. For a long time, this perception made it extremely difficult to have an honest conversation about Poles and WWII without being called an antisemite outright; the German extermination of Poland's 3 million Jews made it impossible to communicate the much more complicated reality they'd shared together since the West would have believed them. Now we know that Poles saved more Jews than any other nation and probably more than all other nations combined. (Unfortunately we'll never know the true number since many Good Samaritans were caught and exterminated along with their families; but Yad Vashem estimates the number could be in the hundreds of thousands) But apart from Yad Vashem, there is only minimal acknowledgement of that ambiguous yet ultimately selfless sacrifice outside of Poland. The moral fortitude of these Poles offends the West for some reason.
While not an immediate near future plan, I would like one day to write a few stories about the Polish experience so that English readers can experience that missing piece of the puzzle. If one reads the stories of Zofia Nalkowska in Medallions - one of the earliest works of Holocaust literature - there are situations my family found themselves in. It's very surreal and close to home. But such a project would be challenging in the ways Samuel brought up, especially in terms of resonating with American audiences who only expect to hear about camps, camps and more camps. Plus gas and ovens. While perspectives are changing, there are still many who would consider stories from the Polish perspective akin to historical revisionism. (Which is, of course, utter nonsense) But I'm willing to take the slings and arrows: someone has to tell the story someday. And Poles during the war went through a lot worse.
Anyway: long explanation. But it is a very deep rabbit hole. XD
If Samuel is reading this: from one writer to another, I wish you all the best with your literary aspirations. Send Paris my regards: I was happy to call it home once upon a time. I will check out your novel soon.
Felix, I don't have any direct experience with the conspiratorial thinking you describe, and I don't think Samuél meant to frame it in quite that way. In fact, I think he tries to remain true to history as he'd researched it without getting boxed in by the political sides. But if the narrative has been contested space in the way that you describe, then I can only expect that WWII will remain attractive as a subject.
I think Samuél is right -- when we start comparing traumas or which story is more worthy, we've lost the humanity of it. I can't help thinking that way a bit as an Americanist. Slavery continues to dwarf indigenous history in American literature. We should have more books about the Japanese internment camps in the U.S., the boarding school era, Chinese immigrants who built the railroads, and more. But it shouldn't be zero sum: breaking historical silence doesn't have to come at someone else's expense, does it?
For sure! No conspiratorial projections upon Samuel intended: in fact, I completely agree with his take on history. I was expressing agreement, although perhaps I took too many of my own stylistic liberties.
I don't think one story is worthier than another in the way you mean, and I don't think I expressed that here. Sharing one out of many stories is no more a sign of superiority imposition than assuming that because someone reads a Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale, it's an anti-Grimm Bros act. The greater number of Poles among the Righteous Among the Nations is an objective fact, not a subjective proclamation; not all chess pieces in history are pawns. Important history like that was excluded from the international debate on historical remembrance for decades, including the entirety of the Cold War. It's not about one-upping others, but basic inclusion. Something I think we all agree upon.
100% agree about things not having to come at the expense of others. At least in terms of a shared historical memory. Whether every domain of the human condition can in fact be as inclusive as historical memory remains to be seen. But we've done pretty well with history on the whole. And I agree, American Indian history is not only marginal but heavily misunderstood; just wrote a post behind the paywall on the little-known Kateri Tekakwitha. Though in California, the story of the Chinese immigrants and the Transcontinental railroad is fairly well known while the Irish at the other end are unknown. I can't speak for other states.
If you want a really niche topic to look into, I suggest the South American internment camps run by the US where Germans were interned the way the Japanese were in Manzanar. They were also interned in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans
Thanks, James! I'm still dragging my feet with my novel, but you and Samuél and others are convincing me. I really wish there were some way of doing this well without feeding the Amazon beast. Samuél's small batch print run is one option, but it's not really scalable, so KDP might get me yet.
Make the Devil serve you…that’s my motto…you can’t defeat HIM..Amazon is absolutely the most profitable way to distribute books for authors…I’ve studied every other model…but unless you order 100,000 copies up front (which would be foolish), POD is it.
It was a pleasure sitting down for this conversation amongst fellow recovering academics. Here's to shaking off more of the academic asbestos as we continue onwards and upwards with more novels
I like the asbestos metaphor -- indeed. Thanks for modeling a thoughtful way to tackle self-publishing. It really seems that the mystique of the agent has worn off. We didn't talk about Willa Cather (people might be sick of my obsession with her), but she was one of Alfred Knopf's first clients. He was a visionary publisher who wanted to acquire unique talent more than he wanted to sell books. The tail is now wagging the dog in that respect, perhaps has been for a long while. The film "American Fiction" tells that tale well.
Incidentally, Cather cared so much about her autonomy that she nixed any future movie deals after Warner Brothers butchered "A Lost Lady." Can you imagine Anthony Doerr objecting to the media adaptation of his book? We can't control our art in every respect once it leaves us, but I appreciate your reminder that we can make some choices -- about our professional partners, quality of paper, and more.
Great interview! A nice deep dive.
Regarding all this from the Polish perspective, I agree with Samuel that very little gets written not only outside the camps as a setting but in Poland in general. (Or should I say Auschwitz: there is less to be found out there set in Treblinka, Chelmno, Majdanek, Sobibor and Belzec) I'm curious about Samuel's novel: it is true that too few stories are set in Lodz. It is a disservice to the city: whether it is the era of Jewish industrialists, the war, the Communist years when it was "Polish Hollywood" or even today, when it's a very lively city, Lodz has enormous storytelling potential. But because it was the postwar film studio setting of many of Poland's best films, it is the exact opposite situation with cinema.
It has, in general, been very difficult to elicit much, if any, interest in and/or sympathy for the Polish wartime experience. It is perceived exactly as Samuel said: as a conspiracy to steal the attention from Jewish suffering and nothing else. Americans, many (though not all) Jews and the EU are stubbornly convinced of this no matter how much it contradicts basic facts; and what little recognition is now given has come only because Poland has stood its ground against international pressure. For a long time, this perception made it extremely difficult to have an honest conversation about Poles and WWII without being called an antisemite outright; the German extermination of Poland's 3 million Jews made it impossible to communicate the much more complicated reality they'd shared together since the West would have believed them. Now we know that Poles saved more Jews than any other nation and probably more than all other nations combined. (Unfortunately we'll never know the true number since many Good Samaritans were caught and exterminated along with their families; but Yad Vashem estimates the number could be in the hundreds of thousands) But apart from Yad Vashem, there is only minimal acknowledgement of that ambiguous yet ultimately selfless sacrifice outside of Poland. The moral fortitude of these Poles offends the West for some reason.
While not an immediate near future plan, I would like one day to write a few stories about the Polish experience so that English readers can experience that missing piece of the puzzle. If one reads the stories of Zofia Nalkowska in Medallions - one of the earliest works of Holocaust literature - there are situations my family found themselves in. It's very surreal and close to home. But such a project would be challenging in the ways Samuel brought up, especially in terms of resonating with American audiences who only expect to hear about camps, camps and more camps. Plus gas and ovens. While perspectives are changing, there are still many who would consider stories from the Polish perspective akin to historical revisionism. (Which is, of course, utter nonsense) But I'm willing to take the slings and arrows: someone has to tell the story someday. And Poles during the war went through a lot worse.
Anyway: long explanation. But it is a very deep rabbit hole. XD
If Samuel is reading this: from one writer to another, I wish you all the best with your literary aspirations. Send Paris my regards: I was happy to call it home once upon a time. I will check out your novel soon.
Felix, I don't have any direct experience with the conspiratorial thinking you describe, and I don't think Samuél meant to frame it in quite that way. In fact, I think he tries to remain true to history as he'd researched it without getting boxed in by the political sides. But if the narrative has been contested space in the way that you describe, then I can only expect that WWII will remain attractive as a subject.
I think Samuél is right -- when we start comparing traumas or which story is more worthy, we've lost the humanity of it. I can't help thinking that way a bit as an Americanist. Slavery continues to dwarf indigenous history in American literature. We should have more books about the Japanese internment camps in the U.S., the boarding school era, Chinese immigrants who built the railroads, and more. But it shouldn't be zero sum: breaking historical silence doesn't have to come at someone else's expense, does it?
For sure! No conspiratorial projections upon Samuel intended: in fact, I completely agree with his take on history. I was expressing agreement, although perhaps I took too many of my own stylistic liberties.
I don't think one story is worthier than another in the way you mean, and I don't think I expressed that here. Sharing one out of many stories is no more a sign of superiority imposition than assuming that because someone reads a Hans Christian Andersen fairy tale, it's an anti-Grimm Bros act. The greater number of Poles among the Righteous Among the Nations is an objective fact, not a subjective proclamation; not all chess pieces in history are pawns. Important history like that was excluded from the international debate on historical remembrance for decades, including the entirety of the Cold War. It's not about one-upping others, but basic inclusion. Something I think we all agree upon.
100% agree about things not having to come at the expense of others. At least in terms of a shared historical memory. Whether every domain of the human condition can in fact be as inclusive as historical memory remains to be seen. But we've done pretty well with history on the whole. And I agree, American Indian history is not only marginal but heavily misunderstood; just wrote a post behind the paywall on the little-known Kateri Tekakwitha. Though in California, the story of the Chinese immigrants and the Transcontinental railroad is fairly well known while the Irish at the other end are unknown. I can't speak for other states.
If you want a really niche topic to look into, I suggest the South American internment camps run by the US where Germans were interned the way the Japanese were in Manzanar. They were also interned in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_German_Americans
Felix, you have a unique perspective on Poland, having made your home there. I appreciate the insights you offer.
The discussion in the middle about publishing financials - trad vs. self was very good and useful for folks on the fence about chasing agents...
Thanks, James! I'm still dragging my feet with my novel, but you and Samuél and others are convincing me. I really wish there were some way of doing this well without feeding the Amazon beast. Samuél's small batch print run is one option, but it's not really scalable, so KDP might get me yet.
Make the Devil serve you…that’s my motto…you can’t defeat HIM..Amazon is absolutely the most profitable way to distribute books for authors…I’ve studied every other model…but unless you order 100,000 copies up front (which would be foolish), POD is it.